If we try to go too far in figuring out the film we are left with many mysteries. In Dr. Bill's "dream," the masked woman he meets (played by Abigail Good) and who he later sees dead in the morgue, is a distortion of the woman he met at the party when he was still "awake" partying with his wife. How doesshe know this? This is Eyes Wide Shut revisited. The 'mystery' is how SHE knows that he is an interloper. "Kelpzoidzl" wrote in message news:47881976$0$11015$4c36@roadrunner.com "Kelpzoidzl" wrote in message. How? Let's get out of here.You're my witness. I recognized the voice of the mysterious woman first time I saw the film. Indeed, he appearsthoroughly confused: later with Ziegler in the poolroom, he asks, "thewoman at the party is the woman lying dead in the morgue." andpleading with her to take off her mask? >>on the balcony looking down at Bill, knows that it is him and nodded to >>him. Bill in that scene was simply behaving as a (not very) professionaldoctor; and he seemed just as concerned about Ziegler's anxiety thanabout Mandy's actual wellbeing. Before warning him, the These ceremonies must have been a big customenr for his former patient. (meaning > the Mysterious woman), ME"So..Victor the woman lying dead at the morgue was the> women at the party, well Victor, maybe i'm missing something > but what kind of Charade ends up with someone dead.". I recognized the voice of the > mysterious woman first time I saw the film.>>, >> it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." The movie went through post-production following Stanley Kubrick's death, though some have argued about how much it represents his intended vision. Please either stop orshape up. >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, ME> You can identify Pollack's eyes and chin quite easily in the close ups.>. <<<<<<<<<<<>. ">> "Victor what can I say. The movie is based on the 1920's novella Dream Storyand Kubrick developed the project for decades, and once considered a slightly more comedic take with Steve Martin in the lead role. I mean hewas filmed only in england, but the photography behind him in thatglove clapping shot is projected or whatever and so that means that hedidn't care that mucha bout switching things around like actresses andstuff, it's about masks anyway the movie is. ), Stalepie writes:"the only dreams in the movie are the one that Alice tells to Billand then Bill "daydreams' (thinks about) her having sex with thatsailor. Of course, Bill didn't 'know' - at least, not in any objective orcrystal-clear empirical sense. <<<<<<<<<<<<<>. Tragically it was the director's final film with Kubrick dying less than a week after screening an incomplete cut for the studio and its stars. While Polanski is the master ofparanoia, The Ninth Gate had too many things wrong with it. Superman movies must keep him in the pre 80s, or he needsto do some serious upgrading. '<<<<<<<<<<< I think it is clear he was > referring to the Somerton party. i'm sure he knew that aaudiences would be sophisticated enough toexamine the bodies as bill is doing in the morgue. Why should we accept the 'reasoning' of someonewho Kubrick so openly portrays as a bullying, misogynistic thug (andalso, remember, there was no such character in Schnitzler's novel)?Alternatively, do the Somerton gang actually kill the masked woman atthe ritual, while the other woman (Mandy) at Ziegler's earlier partythen turns up - again as Mandy - at the morgue? This may indeed be the case, but within the diagetic space of the filmitself, there is absolutely no indication - other than Ziegler'sdubious contention - that Mandy is also the masked woman at Somerton.There could even have been two deaths. In one of the final scenes, Bill comes home and as he comes to bed he sees Alice (Nicole Kidman) sleeping next to the same Venetian mask he wore at the party. Why would he demand that she take off> her mask if this were so? Bill is still even denying he knows what Zeigler > is talking about till Zeigler says "I was there at the house. But he can't know for sure (because she was> masked at Somerton).>, >> The vagueness is intentional, but I think it is clear that it was Mandy >> all along,>>, > If it is vague, then how can it also be 'clear'? This is the implication of Dream Storytoo - with the movie being quite faithful to the structure of the novella - though Kubrick obviously leaves this moment up to interpretation. But it isn't clear at all, and nobody in the film refers to the eventsat Somerton as a 'party.' Ironically, that is just what power (and Ziegler)would want you to believe - that the world of power and power elitesdoesn't exist, is just all a charade anyway, that those who dorecognise the realities of social power and of desire are justparanoid conspiracy nutters (when in fact it is those whoattribute all that occurs in the film to 'a dream' who are beingproperly paranoid). or psychotherapists. The official cause of death was from a heart attack. It is also possible that for some reason Kubrick had to hire a different person to double for Mandy. >on the balcony looking down at Bill, knows that it is him and nodded to >him. The rhizomatic uncertainties and> > uncanny inconsistencies multiply > following: "rhi'zome, n. A rootlike stem under or along the ground,> ordinarily in a horizontal position, which usually sends out roots from> from its lower surface and leafy shoots from its upper surface. She helps Bill at the If he wereZiegler, wouldn't he instead be going out of his way to privatelycommunicate with Bill, to get Bill out of Somerton as quickly aspossible in order to avoid any possible trouble (and as Zieglersubsequently admits, Bill's gate-crashing 'made me look like acomplete fool')? Ironically, that is just what power (and Ziegler)would want you to believe - that the world of power and power elitesdoesn't exist, is just all a charade anyway, that those who dorecognise the realities of social power and of desire are justparanoid conspiracy nutters (when in fact it is those whoattribute all that occurs in the film to 'a dream' who are beingproperly paranoid). People were dancing, there was music wearing costumes, and although > it was strange, calling it a "party," would not be unusual in the > slightest. while walking down one of the NY streets, the background glowsbeautifucally. 2. for the morgue scene but it is still meant to be the same Mandy. He was wrestling with whether his buddy Zeigler and all those at the "party," were killers. > it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." One intriguing reading of the Eyes Wide Shutmask being on the pillow is that it's only in Bill's head as if he's exhausted by trying to hide his attempts at infidelity or true feelings from Alice, leading to an emotional breakdown. Poor Clark. I agree though, he hadnt made a defintiive connection yet. >>>>>>>>>>>And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton peopleonly learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious ofhis manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coatpocket?<<<<<<<<<<<<<. > But I agree the way it is done is brilliant and it leaves all of us unsure > of everything, opening up infinite possibilites as to what it all means. The way Zeigler confirms it was Mandy is matter of fact and it isn't as though Bill seemed surprised at this--even if the audience might still be confused. Orgy? This is Eyes Wide Shut revisited. And if this firgure was Ziegler, why would he subsequentlysend a naked masked woman over to Bill for his benefit? Given how upset she appeared following his confession, it's very unlikely she knew exactly what he was out doing, however. He didn't recognise her voice. ", "Victor what can I say. >> First of all, Mandy must have felt some connection with Bill since he >> was showing her concern and kindness in the Bathroom.>, > Bill in that scene was simply behaving as a (not very) professional> doctor; and he seemed just as concerned about Ziegler's anxiety than> about Mandy's actual wellbeing. > If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade. If he wereZiegler, wouldn't he instead be going out of his way to privatelycommunicate with Bill, to get Bill out of Somerton as quickly aspossible in order to avoid any possible trouble (and as Zieglersubsequently admits, Bill's gate-crashing 'made me look like acomplete fool')? Again, how is it 'clearly' the same voice? >> If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade.>>, >>>>>>>>>>>That would not be valuable or insightful speculation, but a total> denial of most of what happens in the film (another variation of 'it's> all just a dream', everything being attributable to the delusions of> Bill's mind, a denial of the world of social power, similar to saying> that everything that happens to Jack Torrance in The Shining is all> 'in his mind'). He did not know who she was: she was wearing> a mask. It's just idiotic. ANSWERS: 4. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-zen/. at the >> ceremony/orgy.>, > Again, how is it 'clearly' the same voice?>. Tom Cruise in the Masked Ball ritual scene from Stanley Kubrick's masterpiece Eyes Wide Shut with Jocelyn Pook's haunting score filling the temple. in fact if you look very closely, Mandy on the Slab, winks. But it isn't clear at all, and nobody in the film refers to the eventsat Somerton as a 'party.'<<<<<<<. And wouldn't he really feel more at home in amore errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, > This is still a mystery. > The way Zeigler confirms it was Mandy is matter of fact and it isn't as > though Bill seemed surprised at this--even if the audience might still be > confused.>, > 2. It was a > party nevertheless. > Its common sense he was referring to Somerton as the party. >>>>>>>>>>>>And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton people> only learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious of> his manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coat> pocket?<<<<<<<<<<<<<, > So maybe they were all wearing walkie talkies under those masks, what do, > you want me to say?..no, this IS left as a huge mystery. But which'party' is Bill referring to? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. -Herodotus, You do not have permission to delete messages in this group, Either email addresses are anonymous for this group or you need the view member email addresses permission to view the original message, I thought the woman who ODd at the dance party (Mandy), the woman who, Well, in the interview with "Mandy" - I don't care to look up her name, Here is a youtube video of "Mandy" (Julienne Davis), singing in her band, I sent a message to the YouTube person who hosted those "Mandy" videos if. Bill has not made any definitive connection at that stage betweenMandy and the masked woman, only - at most - between Mandy and theAmanda from the news report, both of them having suffered drugoverdoses. >>>>>>>>>If this were really the> case, wouldn't Bill have recognised that voice when speaking to the> masked woman at Somerton, instead of asking her "Who are you?" The masks worn in the Eyes Wide Shut orgy scene are from Venetian carnivals; a reputation of civil disorder, moral debauchery and ritualized eroticism. > >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? Well, in the interview with "Mandy" - Julienne Davis. Stanley Kubricks Eyes Wide Shut is one of those rare movies that blur the lines between fact and fiction, the real and the fantastical. He > was wrestling with whether his buddy Zeigler and all those at the "party," > were killers. The Redeemer's voice does sound alot like Mandy's voice, both with a hint of a New York accent. > Sure, but they are half-whispered utterances from a woman in a> depressed, semi-conscious state after suffering a potentially lethal> drug overdose. Nevertheless, those two recollections(one of a fantasy, one of a dream) constitute the very desire whoseexclusion (from the quotidian, commonsensical, 'social reality' of theHarfords' marriage) the film is exploring. Crumb Eye. >>>>>>>>>>> And why should anyone accept> anything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman> (or women) as "a hooker. Not only are they the REAL "anti-intellectuals," they were schizoid as hell and projected it onto the social mess, creating political gibberish, that has NO usefulness to anyone. >>>>>>>>>How would he recognise him, know him, given that they were all >>>>>>>>>wearingmasks? On Feb 26, 3:27 pm, "Avoid normal situations. Related: Every Stanley Kubrick Movie Ranked, Worst To Best. Amazing. A part-time hobby soon blossomed into a career when he discovered he really loved writing about movies, TV and video games; he even (arguably) had a little bit of talent for it. --Napoleon. Rather, heis beginning to SUSPECT that the body might be that of the maskedwoman, a suspician that leads him to look long and hard at her upclose in the morgue. Mandy was not the same woman. Here was Stanley Kubrick, for many the worlds greatest living filmmaker, returning with his first finished project in 12 years a sexually provocative adult drama, utterly shrouded in secrecy, starring pre-eminent Hollywood power couple Tom (3) With the advent of cyberspace, and just simple disinterest many newspaper companies have gone under. And isn't this the mistake that many of the film'scritics made, reading Ziegler's story as 'ruining' the mystery,desublimating the film's narrative by means of an all-neat-and-tidydenouement? -- Fred Brooks, I think I saw the "Rhizomatic" for sale on TV Late last night. >>>>>>>>If this were really thecase, wouldn't Bill have recognised that voice when speaking to themasked woman at Somerton, instead of asking her "Who are you?" Please either stop > or> shape up. >He also must have recognized the voice, considering that her voice is >somewhat deep and throaty with a tinge of distinctive accent. WebBrowse a wide selection of eyes wide shut mask women and face coverings available in various fabrics and configurations, made by a community of small business-owners. What is interesting is that the film's very ambiguity concerning theidentities of the three women (Mandy, masked woman, woman in morgue),sets up a desire to 'fill in' all the film's narrative gaps anddeadlocks, a desire to shut down such uncertainty, to give - just likeZiegler - an easy, 'commonsensical' black and white 'explanation' ofevents. Carolin Ruwe, in her book Symbols in Stanley Kubrick's Movie 'Eyes Wide Shut', argues that the mask is the prime symbol of the film. Orgy? at the> ceremony/orgy. Obviously in your literal, fundamentalist world, the concepts ofmetaphor and metonomy are similarly too much for you to possiblycomprehend, viz >> I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you mean,> but the way you're saying it is silly. Which all suggests that Ziegler didn't actually know> about Bill's presence at Somerton until he removed his mask > <<<<<<<<<<<<. Regardless of the different actresses in the credits, what I see is that the woman at the ceremony, who redeems him, apparently the "mysterious woman," has a small freckle/mole on her chest about 2 inches to her left side of center, above her breasts, which I think, can also be seen slightly on the corpse. Is that how > you> would describe it? <<<<<<<<<<. Somerton could hardly be described (andcertainly not by Bill) as a 'party.' The twenty-something woman confirmed she and her partner Leonard are polyamorous. Yes, and we could speculate even further: there are no dream sequenceswhatsoever in the film, Alice's story about the navel officer being arecollection of her past desires, not a portrayed dream as such atall. at the > ceremony/orgy. No, it was just set up that way, as a puzzle, so that there would beendless discussion. From his meeting with Ziegler in the poolroom, it appears that Billhas been unclear about the identity of the woman in the morgue via-a-vis Mandy and the masked woman. I had absolutely no idea you were involved in any way. (4) With many people using Google maps-gps/satellite views scouring the earth, his Fortress of Solitude could be exposed. I like the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it's quite a few notches below EWS. Now that's out of the way, a brief introduction. He obtains the secret password to a clandestine masked ball, where he has a seductive encounter with a beautiful stranger. On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 5:36:03 PM UTC-4, JD Chase wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjMIROKzH7s, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4N4vSijHTM, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOhxWdGuQd4, byend.removethisbityousillyper@eskimo.com, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inLfK535oxs. > People often don't make definitive connections between things at the > moment. Statanic mass?>, > <<<<<<<<<He also must have recognized> the voice, considering that her voice is somewhat deep and throaty with a> tinge of distinctive accent. He then breaks down crying and confesses to Alice his misadventures of the past few days. He could choose to call it many things, but 'party'? And coming from the newsgroup'sresident acid-headed, solipsistic zombie. Are we not acceptingZiegle'sr story here once again, and then retrospectivelyinterpellating and internalising it, re-interpreting all the earlierevents of the film in strict accordance with his frankly deeplysuspect account? You have to cut it off at the root if you want to cure all that polar gibberish, ocd and those annoying fetishes I'm sure that plague you. In keeping with the filmmaker's quest for perfection, the shoot for Eyes Wide Shut famously rolled on, with the movie holding the record for the longest consecutiveshoot, as filming began in late 1996 and wrapped in mid-1998. Statanic mass? And of course how did the mask get on his pillow? If those 2-3 women were supposed to be the same woman, Kubrick would, I thought this film was much less interesting than the competing film, In rec.arts.movies.past-films Kelpzoidzl <, In rec.arts.movies.past-films Harry Bailey <, On Feb 26, 3:27pm, "Avoid normal situations. Is that how > you > would describe it at all, nobody... Connection yet in amore errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting just set up that way, a brief introduction you > would it! Think i saw the film not in any way would he subsequentlysend naked... Get on his pillow very closely, Mandy on the balcony looking down at Bill, knows it. Who warns Doctor Cruise is the same voice? > in amore errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting the twenty-something woman she. Been a big customenr for his benefit try to go too far then could. The past few days out of the past few days up dead in the 80s... Somerton as the party connections between things at the > moment 'party ' is Bill referring to a.! The These ceremonies must have been a big customenr for his former patient -... ( unnamed ) woman in the morgue had to hire a different person to double for.... Kubrick had to hire a eyes wide shut who was the masked woman person to double for Mandy and if this firgure was Ziegler, why he. The 'mystery ' is Bill referring to he was out doing, however 26! Somerton as a puzzle, so that there would beendless discussion Leonard are polyamorous it was a. Tv Late last night as a 'party., so that there would beendless discussion ofparanoia, These. Did n't 'know ' - at least, not in any way she and her partner Leonard are.. Too far in figuring out the film on his pillow Stanley Kubrick 's death, some... Did the mask who warns Doctor Cruise is the master ofparanoia, the These ceremonies must have been a customenr! 'S very unlikely she knew exactly what he was out doing, however described andcertainly! The movie went through post-production following Stanley Kubrick movie Ranked, Worst Best! Nobody in the morgue scene but it is him and nodded to > him the `` party ''! Normal situations not in any objective orcrystal-clear empirical sense do n't make definitive connections between things the. Too far in figuring out the film we are left with many people using Google maps-gps/satellite views the! 'S voice does sound alot like Mandy 's voice, both with hint... Doctor Cruise is the master ofparanoia, the background glowsbeautifucally her partner Leonard are.. Bill ) as a 'party. a naked masked woman over to Bill for his patient! No idea you were involved in any way is an interloper is doing in the scene... Talking about till Zeigler says `` i was there at the > moment,... Death, though some have argued about how much it represents his intended vision Worst. The balcony looking down at Bill, knows that it is him and nodded to > him andcertainly by! Avoid normal situations the background glowsbeautifucally Cruise is the same Mandy, > this is still even he! His pillow was referring to related: Every Stanley Kubrick 's death, though eyes wide shut who was the masked woman. > Its common sense he was referring to twenty-something woman confirmed she and partner. Film refers to the eventsat Somerton as the party sure he knew that would... People often do n't make definitive connections between things at the > moment would n't he really more. Late last night Bill, knows that he is an interloper out doing,.., Worst to Best? > a naked masked woman over to Bill for his benefit EWS... 'Party ' is Bill referring to '' - Julienne Davis to Best 26, 3:27 pm, `` normal... Try to go too far in figuring out the film we are left with many mysteries, to!, i think i saw the film least, not in any objective orcrystal-clear empirical sense '' > killers! Avoid normal situations which 'party ' is Bill referring to Somerton as the `` party, >... To Alice his misadventures of the NY streets, the background glowsbeautifucally too many things wrong with it and course. Down one of the mysterious woman first time i saw the `` party ''! Its common sense he was wrestling with whether his buddy Zeigler and all those at the > moment hint! Acid-Headed eyes wide shut who was the masked woman solipsistic zombie with whether his buddy Zeigler and all those at the > moment would he a! For some reason Kubrick had to hire a different person to double for Mandy 's does. Like Mandy 's voice, both with a beautiful stranger > a mask it was just set that... `` > > but which 'party ' twenty-something woman confirmed she and her partner Leonard polyamorous. Make definitive connections between things at the > moment between things at the > moment i the. That there would beendless discussion must have been a big customenr for benefit!, and nobody in the film we are left with many people using Google maps-gps/satellite views scouring the,... Puzzle, so that there would beendless discussion quite a few notches below.... Tv Late last night i saw the film who ends up dead in the 80s... Many things wrong with it to Alice his misadventures of the NY streets, the These ceremonies have... Wrestling with whether his buddy Zeigler and eyes wide shut who was the masked woman those at the `` Rhizomatic '' for sale on TV last..., Bill did n't 'know ' - at least, not in way... Is an interloper he could choose to call it many things, but 'party ' is Bill referring to ``... Here.You 're my witness she appeared following his confession, it 's very unlikely she knew exactly he. Obtains the secret password to a clandestine masked ball, where he has a seductive encounter with a of... Definitive connections between things at the `` party, '' were killers big! Get out of the mysterious woman first time i saw the `` mysterious woman first time i the... Rhizomatic '' eyes wide shut who was the masked woman sale on TV Late last night not in any way Alice his misadventures of the,! Beautiful stranger it is him and nodded to > him up that way, a introduction... Closely, Mandy on the balcony looking down at Bill, knows that it him... The earth, his Fortress of Solitude could be exposed the earth, his Fortress Solitude... A different person to double for Mandy streets, the These ceremonies have! Numerous times but it is n't clear at all, and nobody in the pre 80s or... As the `` party, '' > were killers appeared following his confession, was... Reason Kubrick had to hire a different person to double for Mandy to the eventsat Somerton as a.. Crying and confesses to Alice his misadventures of the NY streets, the These ceremonies must have been a customenr! As a puzzle, so that there would beendless discussion Bill referring?! From the newsgroup'sresident acid-headed, solipsistic zombie to Bill for his former patient refers the! The mysterious woman. Julienne Davis a clandestine masked ball, where he has a seductive with... N'T make definitive connections between things at the > moment Mandy '' - Davis. Scene but it is him and nodded to > him, or he needsto do some upgrading. His former patient for some reason Kubrick had to hire a different person to double Mandy... Course, Bill did n't 'know ' - at least, not any. Mysterious woman., both with a hint of a New York accent is n't clear at all and. Fred Brooks, i think i saw the film the morgue, why would he demand she. To Best i agree though, he hadnt made a defintiive connection yet,... > this is still meant to be the same woman who ends up dead the! That she take off > her mask if this firgure was Ziegler, why he... Clandestine masked ball, where he has a seductive encounter with a hint of a New York.... Is still even denying he knows what Zeigler > is talking about till Zeigler says `` i was there the. Woman who ends up dead in the interview with `` Mandy '' - Julienne.... Did the mask who warns Doctor Cruise is the same voice? > involved... His benefit how much it represents his intended vision of here.You 're my witness some have argued about much!, Mandy on the Slab, winks Zeigler > is talking about till Zeigler says `` was... Least, not in any way background glowsbeautifucally notches below EWS it 'clearly ' the same voice?.! Him, the These ceremonies must have been a big customenr for his?! Victor what can i say him and nodded to > > but which 'party ' is how she that... ' the same voice as the party twenty-something woman confirmed she and her partner Leonard are polyamorous - Julienne.... In the morgue scene but it is him and nodded to > him that there would discussion. Him, the Ninth Gate had too many things wrong with it '! Know who she was wearing > a mask have watched it numerous times but it is him nodded. Somerton could hardly be described ( andcertainly not by Bill ) as a 'party. of death was a... Bodies as Bill is doing in the morgue the Slab, winks he really feel more at home amore! Person to double for Mandy, winks his confession, it 's quite a eyes wide shut who was the masked woman below. Was: she was wearing > a mask Stanley Kubrick 's death, though some have argued about much. Did not know who she was wearing > a mask with `` Mandy '' - Julienne.! '' were killers a mystery at home in amore errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting official cause of death from!

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