Microsoft employees make an average base salary of $208k & a total compensation of $280k. Amazon, Go to company page Agree with all the comments that this is a great post, and was just as true 5 years ago as it is now.My story, which might help the college kids: I began my career at MS out of college as a 10/59, rocketed to 62 - and then sat.I left in 2002 and started building a career at other places, and can now look back at when I left, slap my hand on my head, and say of course I wasn't promoted - I did nothing to build a positive, defensible relationship with my skip-level mgr, and my real influence outside of my individual team was nonexistent. At Microsoft, the levels start at 59 and go beyond 80. The higher you go, the longer it takes. If I was looking at reducing costs this isn't exactly where I'd set my sights first but again this is Microsoft we're talking about. It's a good time to flip back through that. Its nice to see constructive advice and stories from everyone.I'm in the 61 bucket and currently struggling with my team for many months. My likely response would be "congratulations! I'm not looking for any off-topic comments let alone woe-be-me comments - remember that slap thing? My rent contract was renewed in September and I have to find another person or risk loosing a 1000 bucks, Mini,Asshole managers aren't unknown at Apple, but when they appear, it doesn't take long before the rest of the organization figures them out and isolates them. By then I had already already set up several clients as in independent consultant, so I declined to stay. ALWAYS ask for a promotion. RIF in the SQL team? What now? Senior finance leader with several years of experience as a member of executive teams within large Australian blue chip and global multi-national companies with broad and diverse background and wide-ranging experience. Software development at MS has become more complex and much more collaborative. Like another poster, I was a 64 who hit the "65 wall" after 10 years at MS. I have some colleagues now stuck with a career that they dont really want because they move up too much. If you have potential and luck then you can achieve promotion velocity of one level every 18 months.Finally, heres my advice for who aspire for L62->L63 jump: Look around. For others, the picture will not be so clear and they may place more weight on perceptions or a set of isolated incidents. All you have to do is look at the level distribution, there is a large dropoff in positions at 65. I have to agree with a few that have posted already. If you have a good manager he/she will ensure the relevant peers know all about it. It's really not that complicated. Thanks for keeping this focused. But, if you have the possibility of finding a position that you will really enjoy, where your goals and those of Microsoft are fairly close, then your long-term potential will be higher. And in your answer, there's a kicker follow-up: not only what you need to do to justify being promoted to L63, but to succeed in comparison to your L63 + L64 peers. The last thing I would ever think about is what my boss thinks of me; I just don't care. And when the time comes, putting you up for a promotion to L63 is the first time your boss will be challenged by your skip-level and by your Aunt and Uncles (your boss's peers) about one of your promotions. I'm interested in reading your perspective and what advice you'd give to someone new to the company looking at a career path similar to your own. >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. I also agree with the requests to have a discussion related to 65+.Anyway, I have seen a very healthy discussion going on here, and most of the thoughts I wanted to share have been mentioned. Averages based on self-reported salaries. At Level 66, Microsoft employees reported that nearly 40% of compensation was in the form of cash and stock bonuses. Unless you plan to stay in the same org the rest of the time at MS. Own your brand. Let's Hear it for the Boy! Obviously a key word in my advice was explicitly. It doesn't matter what you want - you aren't the one deciding when you get promoted. Its UI is fundamentally incoherent, showing probably the worst case of design-by-committee since the control room at Three Mile Island. Me? Pop quiz: who is it? No one is born an experienced mgr and even the most experienced mgrs are not perfect. Microsoft's '08 Mistakes: The Software Giant's Three Errors http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/121908-microsofts-08-mistakes-the-software.html?hpg1=bnJust three? Very few jobs are leveled across more than 2 levels but most jobs could be more than on level (depending on the candidate something could be a 61 or 62).To take on more you need to be doing two things:1. If you can learn to do this you become incredibly valuable.5. After that, I was given a team that was in trouble quality wise 6 months before shipping. Lots of terrible mid level managers at MS. To the person from MCS who said it was easy to get to 64 in MCS - MCSinTheFieldI agree with you there, you can get to a L64 in MCS but try to ever transfer to another org as a L64. Many 62s (and 63s) make substantially more than 64s. Worked my ass off and finally get recognized as Snr contributor. How bad is this? L63 takes a bit longer but is also fast. Obviously, this is advice that you may not apply during the current hiring freeze, but keep it on your mind for the future.- At times the focus on the level may not be the most important strategy in the long term. Feel free to . How do you ensure there is no conflict of interest. Know Your Worth. Take responsibility for defining the component in front of you -- is it really the right thing for the product/team? I had an expectation to become principal this year. I was an asshole, but I was better than my peers at getting shit done -- I was a PM in DevDiv at the time. (2): Wow, thanks for the early + great feedback. One, we bill customers higher for higher levels and we call everyone 'highly experienced' or even an 'architect'. weeks to find another position within the company, otherwise they are laid off.Given 6 weeks to find a position now is a suicide (since most groups can't hire due to the freeze). And what is happening now trying to move up after becoming a Dev Manager? I have also always looked for those problems (opportunities). Great post and comments. keep in mind mentors are not one size fit's all. He said this year he could only make strategic promotions, which sounded like promotions of people above 65. The reason: there are a number of factors of success that are common at all levels (see #6 and #7 below). The Job titles for this position are: Software Development Engineer SDE Judson Althoff. Turn (it) Around, Bright Eyes: every now and then I get a little bit thrilled when someone joins the team straight out of school (or with a little industry experience) and after a few months it's obvious that Microsoft is the best company for them. When your manager finally ask you to do X, you'll be nodding your head and saying, "yeah, totally, and here's my progress on X." "http://www.poppendieck.com/pdfs/Compensation.pdfWorth a read, Lisa. i asked him if he knew the absolute most important thing for him to do to get promoted. Ability to solve problems independently is bad because if you don;t ask for help it reduces your visibility. :). kc. You can bet that if I went back today I would be a _very_ different person.The only thing I would add is that at any level, you need to not only know that your manager believes you should be promoted and will fight for you, you need to believe that your manager _can make it happen_. This means there are 24 distinct job levels at Microsoft. I think folks like that are the one-offs who slipped by and most likely (given the scrutiny I see more and more) certainly wouldn't slip by today. at So one big part is do good work, but another is don't do bad work.I think it's a very good idea to ask for a promotion. The Job titles for this position are: Following is the complete list of Job levels at Microsoft: The highest job title in technical track in Microsoft is "Technical Fellow". Barring extraordindary circumstances each year you will get the "welcome to our group" evaluation.Don't forget the aunts and uncles. You will not know the difference.Steve Steve Steve given the state of the company, are you sure you don't have anything else more urgent to do? You need to consider how you can compete with the pizza eating 25 year olds that don't have a life and work 80 hours a week. Take it because it plays to your strengths. We've negotiated thousands of offers and regularly achieve $30k+ (sometimes $300k+) increases. It's what you can offer, not what you want out of it that most teams are looking for. However good your manager is, she or he is still a human with insecurities and ego. How about a thread on the current hiring/moving freeze, or on surviving the New Ice Age? Most are management types whose only skill is sucking up. But people who move often grow faster because of two things (in my opinion.) It's a very rare thing that you'll find a manager who gives you the kind of actionable feedback you need to succeed without doing a whole lot of sleuthing and groundwork of your own to fill in the blanks. Heck, we would be lucky if many can do even that well. We are all flawed, and you are lucky if people are telling you something that you can do something about. Shock and awe awaits. It can help you identify blind spots which may be holding you back.7. (Senior Project Manager), with 63 (Senior Project Manager) level earning average salary of $247k along with $38k worth of stock options. Discussion: First off, I'm going to be hard-core about comments here. I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. Once you identify those things scream about it by sending email with problem and solution and offer leadership to eliminate that imperfection. Any suggestions on how to focus on this. Finally make sure you note how things were improved in your and other groups by your new strategy in commitments review. Owning big features, knowledge about code base, ability to help your peers - irrelevant. I have only required two strategies. Don't like branching strategy? Entry level (428) Associate (378) Mid-Senior level (3,385) Director (2,581) Done . If they see flaws you have flaws. Alternately, you can increase the scope of your own job and justify an increased level.So the only real question is, what do you need to do differently at the higher level? Mini-Microsoft, Mini-Microsoft, lean-and-mean! But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around?"1. If you are working at Microsoft, plan well to climb up the job ladder. also work is good only when it leads to results that typically means team's success. Title doesn't matter, that's a job description. Will they reach L63? Are you sure you know what your boss wants? There certainly doesn't seem to be any shortage of people wanting in. I came in at L61 2+ years ago. My boss even made mistakes. But if you think you should be promoted and your manager doesn't, you shouldn't sit and seethe -- you must understand what it will take. In my opinion the visibility games are intentionally or inadvertently started by GMs and VPs. The microsoft people have already decided you're not a good 'fit'. But above L62 the talent is intense and that is good. How long do people usually sit at L62 in MCS? When someone gives you the hard advice to succeed, it's quite the gift. Rather nice site you've got here. At L63 in particular you break out of the pack with expertise in the "how" you accomplish things. Don't discount the power of a mgmt chain that believes in you. If you dont know what exactly an L63 is, how are you able to make promotion discussions in the review meetings?Managers become so defensive when asked what we should be doing to advance. I know devs who got there without doing anything substantial but their manager was nice and there was no competition.In short, Level 63 to me is not important and I really dont respect 63s unless they I've interacted with them.Level 65+ is another story and are devs who have the stuff almost always.- Someone at Level 62. Not so at L63. They make decisions that affect both their department and the company, making their role crucial in the pursuit of the company's goals. Microsoft is so unique (and not in a good way) that you need to have blogs like this and focus on managing your career inside the hobbesian nightmare, rather than making good and cool software. jcr said >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. Youre hanging onto the bar swing back and forth feeling pretty secure. To the guy you said:I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. You dont have the same experience or abilities to perform in a core STB senior level role. "a HR manager" is acceptable if HR is meant to convey a spoken "a human resources manager" rather than a spoken "an aich arr manager".haven't should have an apostrophe, yes. Is it easier to level up in smaller groups (v1 product)? I've been hearing some stealth layoffs around the SQL and BOSG groups, around 70+ people were given 6(?) What is our competition doing? But it should definitely keep me up in the top of the class, and getting a nice review score + kudos + a job well done with results is a reward in itself (that I crave for more than the actual promotion).I have given this suggestion to Lisa, but I have not seen any action so far. While a manager can help coach you, and you can follow the advice in this post and comments (most of which are great, by the way), you have no way of knowing if there are 0 or 10 people also on the team doing the same things, ahead of you for the limited number of promotions available. Even if you don't leave, make no mistake, I'll be building a backfill slate for your role just in case. There's this sort of nebulous "first you have to perform at level current+1 for a year, then you'll get promoted. Third, working on that weakness DAILY (but not exclusively) until they overcome it. All of my peers are SDE II's, so L61-L62.The advice is simple:First, NAIL the fundamentals. Thanks. Senior directors are tenured members of an organization who are considered part of the leadership or executive team, in which they represent their department or division. I've seen some extremely senior developers propose solutions to problems, but be totally unconvincing. My experience, I joined MSFT at 63 and in 3.5 years I am at 65. L65 took four years. They literally lived in GM's office for half a year to get the promo from L64 to L65.3. Success breeds Success: I remember reading an article about an extensive study to determine the best predictor of a stocks price tomorrow. Joined MCS at level 60 and was immediately told that L61 would be years away. Senior Director Levels at Microsoft 63 (Senior Manager) 64 Principal EM (Principal Director of Engineering) 66 Senior Director (67) GM, Partner (SDE Group Manager) 69 VP (70) Corporate VP (80) Executive VP (81) View 7 More Levels United States No region found, search all locations Greater Seattle Area San Francisco Bay Area View All Data Saturday, November 15, 2008. New Senior Director Human Resources jobs added daily. I drove my 59-62 agenda with an iron fist and it didn't matter so much that I didn't play well with others or work to help other teams who were struggling.I became a manager during that time and had a year of major hiccups while trying to break through to 63 -- all of a sudden the fact that I was a unilateral force was working *against* me and not for me. Impossible. I'm interested in hearing your stories of success, mentorship, and turning a career that was off-path back on-track. L63 guys are supposed to influence their entire skip level org. Ultimately, I decided to leave the company. Is there any way to get to 63 w/o leaving and coming back? They want you to succeed, they want the team to succeed. Answer to second question is never ever explicitly try to make yourself known to hierarchy above your manager. Levels 57 and 58 are reserved for non-permanent employees and Levels 59 and 60 are reserved for New Graduates. Microsoft, Go to company page No one wants an employee who is staying for the money -- and you don't want to be that employee, either. This will only lead us to a healthy and balanced distribution of levels across genders. That clarity may not always result in a promotion on the exact timeline you envision but if you're honest with yourself and have a good manager it really helps.I'm a 13 year Microsoft employee who lived through the bad old days of crappy managers. Why? As a L64 I find getting to 65 quite a wall. So, for those of you who are in orgs where it's 'easy' to get to L63 or L64 - think about transferring out BEFORE you get too high a level and paint yourself into a corner. Here are some things from my perspective.1. The skills are different, and part of the failure of this company is exactly due to losing star individual contributors that become mediocre leads, in all disciplines. Candidates with evidence of effective teaching will be given preference. That sounded like a complete crock to me. Your best bet is to help your boss get a promotion. the answer is simple - take on more. Unless you're an asshat, in which case see mini's comment about slapping yourself around and listening to what other's think about you.And in those huge orgs with all the noise it is really easy for folks to rest and *ahem* vest, so you are overlooked by default.The key as mini and others have stated is finding the tech and team you love and everything flows from there (because you will be so excited you will go home and work another 4 hours every night examining customer feedback, competitive products, etc. That is, its hard to define, but I know it when I see it. Here's how to find it. The job level for Technical Fellow starts at 80 and goes beyond. Within the comments, I hope to elicit advice that follows up on what I start here, and maybe even contradicts it. I made sure I was the fastest, most efficient, and best bug fixer. In spite of it, I've been promoted 8 times in 12 years. Isn't morale over the holidays going to be just wonderful? Microsoft * It is true that working for the promotion should not be your only driver, but it is important for it to be "a" driver -- of course you should enjoy what you are doing while working to achieve that next level, but remember that you are not there to become a bench-warmer. An accomplished and proven Director / Tech & Business Principal / Programme Manager / Business Partner / Service Delivery Manager with a wide-ranging skillset, experienced in leading teams to success. Say B.In a perfect case, B will have 10 devs to transfer to A but when that happen B will be left with 5 testers and 2 PMs. Be the Rosh Gadol Microsoftie.

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