Somebody needs to vet their sources of information and also use a little common sense. I believe politics carries the most weight.The military sidearm is the least political concern as far as what other weapons are available for them.The beretta was a good example.Far from the best weapon compared to sig & glock,it got us a deal to put missles in Italy . In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. Riley, love your artical. Yes, yeas I have. Been hunting 49 years. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. It has something to do with occasions where they might carry concealed: Since last year, MARSOC has purchased and fielded 1,654 Glock 19s because Raiders needed a reliable secondary weapon that could be used for both a concealed carry profile and a low-visibility profile, and having one approved pistol for all special operators saves money, he said. To make a long govt document short, the armor would likely stop a 9mm with a few bruises. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. Then get ready for a gunfight. So that is where the saying and belief came from. Any other manufacturers that have been notified that they are not going to be selected may be waiting for the DoD to make the official announcement. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. Robert MacNemerra knew nothing about firearms but his decision that the AR-15s chrome lined bore and chamber was a needless waste of money brought a whole lot of grief to a whole lot of people. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? WebThe human body can survive relatively high blast overpressure without experiencing barotrauma. Scratch expensive 45s. If the technology got better for one caliber, it got better for all of them!! I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. But you still want the best caliber possible, because while people are disposed to fall down when shot, not every target does. 12 shots fired. Secondly, if you you tube ballistic testing of the 9mm and 45acp, lets say using Federal HSTs you will see that the 9mm round is more than capable and every bit as functional as the 45 in getting the job done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. And I can certainly understand WHY you would be led to thinking that switching to the Glock 21 would improve your chances of getting a stop. He was a deputy sheriff. I have yet to see this. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. So, the answer is simple, right? For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. If you dont have an excellent chance against a large carnivore with it. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. Its not our opinion that makes us right. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes.. This is accomplished through simple physics; a larger bullet imparts more force into its target than a smaller one. Take it from me, a physics major. And other trauma surgeons are on record as saying that they cannot tell the difference between wounds caused by 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. 0.177" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 300 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. I have a Glock19 and Glock23 chambered .40S&W and that is a great round to. WebAs shown in Fig. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. Just happened to recall the powerful 10 auto cartridge. #firearmtraining. In response to this, ammunition makers began to design Hollowpoint bullets which would expand in the air during flight. So In a effort to accommodate all soldiers they switched to a milder recoiling 9mm round. A 7.6225 is venerated as so amazing by PPsh humpers. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp Thank you Bill ! The one magor factor that keeps deciding the outcome is if the victim or assailant has the actual ability to kill. My Kimber .45 is one of my favorite pistols EVER, but its heavy and only has 8 rounds. The objective of this study was to construct a JavaScript is disabled. This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. Because capacity equals TIME. 24 Round Magazine now only decreases reload time by 5% rather than 20% like before. When the weather is colder and requires a jacket or coat, I carry my Glock 30s, extra mag for either. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. He came up in this world initially through his 8-year experience with a state-level law enforcement agency in Colorado. Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. On a side note, this is the recent trend move away from larger calibers to smaller ones. The Human Torso Test. Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. for every day carry. We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. I totally agree about shot placement. The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. I do think a close range the 45 ACP will knock someone down where ever you hit them. There is no substitute for experience. I daily now carry a 9 mm. thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. I also reload/handload have shot competitively and have hunted all my life. I still prefer the .45. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. F=MA is F=MA. What I have seen over the years on this debate, is that the majority, not all, prefer the 9mm due to its minimal recoil, magazine capacity and concealability. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. When I left LE I traided for a S&W 39-2 9mm. Looking back at the stories we told, and which stuck with us, during an eventful year. .45 acp is a good round and I prefer it used in close quarter environments becuse it is heavier and pack more energy. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. No regrets. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. Owned a model 29 .357 Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. Chris Bartocci on a YouTube video explains why MARSOC went away from this 1911. Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. I just had to get my 2 cents in. It worries me that you feel safe carrying a .45 acp around bears and moose. It normally doesnt do that with hollowpoints, either. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. My opinion, for whatever its worth, is that were all overthinking this. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. I like the P227 better. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, 3 more replies -8w7- 13 hr. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. Still, the research is not widespread and a great deal of it is not terribly relevant for the average person searching for a reliable self-defense weapon. Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. You could smell the gunpowder. According to a sweeping 2016 survey, there were, at that time, more guns in the hands of Americans than there are cars on the road. 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. too powerful??? Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. And the department is no small one. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. You prefer the .45 for stopping power? Watch the .22 and the .223 tested on blocks of ballistics gelatin, a material that mimics human tissue. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. Why dont these experts just admit that they prefer Glocks and let it go at that? There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was I know I prefer .45ACP. During each tour I was personally involved multiple combat engagements. Police usually shoot from a distance. A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. Just wanted to throw that against the wall. But associates I worked with and against on jobs they all use one main gun to kill with the 9 mm with silencer. However, if the bullet lacks a JHP configuration, then its not doing as well as it could. Over the years I have owned and carried many 1911s. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. Practice more and dont be proud you cant shoot. With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. But this cartridge uses a half-grain bullet compared to 9mm. THAT shot better make a change. Its round is designed to not only kill the attacker but also to stop him in his tracks. .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! Died instantly. Open the tools menu in your browser. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. Has anyone thought of learning how to control the .45 instead of wimping out after the first shot? Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. Just bless his little Prsident heart. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. I have read how the 124gr 9mm ammo used by NATO does not do its intended job. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will only penetrate one side of a human skull. Since 1959 we have striven as a family-owned business to build a gun shop that is here to grow with your family. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. I know the argument for +P with lighter bullets, but I settled on these because they meet my two most important criteria for defensive ammo penetration and accuracy. The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. For me the thing that has always solved this debate is simple. The projectile is losing velocity and arcing downward. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. At least to the U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC), there is no longer a question. .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. Cool story for real. Im 73 yoa. Wood, USMC, 1966-68, Quang tri Province. Both forget one major factor. Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. There were 5 gunshots to his chest. One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. I like to shoot three-four people a weektime permitting, of course. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. In the words of Dr. Peter Rhee, a leading trauma surgeon and a retired Navy captain with 24-years of service, talking about all handgun wounds including .45 ACP and 9mm, he said, A Handgun wound is simply a stabbing with a bullet.

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